92. How to Find Hidden Gem Colleges: Expert Advice for Students and Parents to Find the Right College with Michelle McAnaney

Unlocking College Success: Expert Tips on Choosing the Right College

In this episode of the College and Career Ready podcast, Coach Sonia spoke with her special guest Michelle McAnaney, founder and lead independent educational consultant of the College Spy. Michelle shares invaluable insights on the college selection process, discussing factors such as return on investment, understanding various college cultures, and the importance of finding a school that fits a student's unique needs. She emphasizes the benefit of hidden gem colleges and the practical importance of in-person campus visits. This episode is packed with essential advice for high school students and their families navigating the college admissions journey, highlighting the need for thorough research and self-reflection to make well-informed decisions.

00:00 Introduction to the College and Career Ready Podcast
00:36 Meet Michelle McAnaney: Founder of The College Spy
02:22 Understanding Return on Investment in College Selection
06:20 The Importance of College Fit Over Name Brand
15:36 Creating a Personalized College List
23:10 The Value of Campus Visits and Virtual Tours
28:32 Discovering Hidden Gem Colleges
36:53 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Transcript

Michelle: 0:01

This is Michelle McEnany and you're listening to the college and career ready podcast.

0:06

Welcome to College and Career Ready, the only podcast that helps students transition from high school to college and college to their career. My name is Sonia Kasike. I'm a former educator, certified school counselor, career coach, and founder of Discover U. Together, we will redefine what it truly means to be college and career ready. And with our community, you don't have to do this alone. So come with me. And let's get started.

Sonia: 0:36

Today on our podcast, we have Michelle McCannany, who is the founder and lead independent educational consultant of the College Spy. She personally helps students choose the right college and get in concierge service. We are so lucky to have her here today because we will be talking all about college selection and helping you select the best college for your team. So without further ado, let's get started. Hi Michelle, how are you today? I am. Well, thanks for having me on the podcast. I am excited to have you because I have been wanting to get someone to start talking about colleges. And when you and I met, I was like, okay, this is a no brainer. I need to have the show on here. She is the specialist of colleges. And so we are super excited to have you here today. why don't you tell us about yourself? Tell our audience a little bit about, what you do and your experience.

Michelle: 1:38

Sure. I'm the founder of the College Spy, and I work with students on the college admissions process from building a college list, one that fits the student really well, to doing the applications and the essays, and I am the project manager of the whole process when I'm working with students one on one. But we also offer other things at the college uh, summer boot camps, essay workshops, things at a lower price point so that we can be accessible to more families.

Sonia: 2:10

Very nice, very nice. And we're going to dive right into college selection. But before we do that, I have a question that I've just been wanting to ask you. Um, one of the things that I hear a lot, and I even say myself is return on investment. So do you, hear that a lot? Do you feel that, parents are thinking of return on investment and what does return on investment mean for you in reference to college selection?

Michelle: 2:40

You know, I see it a lot in the news. It's all over, uh, all the different articles that are out there about colleges and some of my parents are talking about the return on investment. And I think it means something different to different people. So for many people, it's a simple, we're putting money in. And what money is my child going to be able to make when they exit this college? And for other people, it's a little bit broader. And they're thinking about what is the return on our investment that maybe can't be quantified. So things like, um, is my child making friends at college? Are they finding connections that will help them get internships and research opportunities and other little pieces that, you know, If we pay this much money for college, is the experience going to be a good one for our child? So there's that piece, but then there's some families who are just talking about what's, what's the actual money coming out of this? Is the, is the student going to be able to make money or more money if we put more money into their college education?

Sonia: 3:43

Got it. What is, what is your take when you're working with students and you realize that the amount invested in the college that they're choosing is going to take them years to recuperate with the profession that they choose? you know, the, the area of specialty that they're going into, if it takes them that much time to honestly kind of make, make ends meet, um, what would you say to them?

Michelle: 4:11

my personal take based on my own experiences and my beliefs actually don't matter that much in this process. So my job is to get to know the families really well and to understand what matters to them. Cause sometimes I'd be working with a family, this happened yesterday, where, uh, I work with a lot of neurodivergent students. students in this particular student. As long as that student is working when they come out of college and not just sitting around watching television, the parents are going to supplement. That's just what they're going to do. Um, but other families that I'm working with, they're really concerned about the cost of college. And the fact that their child might end up in a lot of debt. And then I'm going to take the approach of, okay, we're going to look for schools that are going to be very generous with you with either need based or merit aid. So my take on it depends on the family that I'm working with and what's important to them. And I align myself with what's important to them while also educating them about things they might not be thinking about in this. Um, and it's a process. So, for example, some families automatically are going to believe that if we get a more expensive education or pick a more prestigious college, I put that in air quotes. I don't know if you're I know your audience can't see that, um, that that means that the return on investment is going to be better, and that's not always the case. And so I do provide that information to families, but ultimately they're making the decision about what's important to them.

Sonia: 5:40

Oh, I love that. I love how you're bringing it back into the forefront. Just as an FYI, right? Um, because you and I being in the education system, we, for so many years, we know that sometimes there are even parents who are still paying their own education debt as they're paying their child's education as well.

Michelle: 5:59

I know that that is, uh, astronomical right amount of money that they're putting into education, and they're probably looking at their own experience and saying to themselves, I'm still paying off this education. How much money am I making? Because I got that education and then applying that to their child, their child's experience.

Sonia: 6:18

Absolutely. Well, let's let's dive in now to the college selection process. So, you know, I'm in Texas. And so for us, we know our quote unquote name brand schools, right? Um, they just roll off of our tongue. Everybody knows them. and how important do you think the name brand is for students college search?

Michelle: 6:42

I personally don't think it's very important. Most of the time, there might be some fields that it could potentially make a difference. But in my experience, students going to schools that are not name brand schools often do extremely well. And the colleges offer amazing training. Opportunities for students that families don't always know about their thinking about these top schools and by top schools. What they're referring to is U. S. News and World Reports list of the best colleges in the U. S. Ranked and that's what they want. Sometimes they want their child to go to a top 20 or a top 50 school and not really thinking about whether or not that school is a fit and also they Automatically eliminating a whole lot of other schools that will be a good fit for their child and where they would get a lot of ROI. And the student would do really well. And so it's my job to educate families about why they might choose to pick a school that. It's not in the top 20 or the top 50 and what the benefits might be. It's a very hard sell. If a person has a strong belief about this top 20, top 50 schools, it is hard to move them out of that. Although I do have some ways that I try. Absolutely. And,

Sonia: 8:04

and this is because it's, it's been plugged into us, you know, the media, um, the news, everything just keeps talking about the schools. And again, I am non biased. I'm like you. When I'm working one on one with a student, we explore all options. And, I don't believe, um, One school is for all and I do believe that students should definitely look at all the different opportunities. Um, are they, are they still amazing schools? Absolutely. And there's a lot of kids I can think of that I'm thinking, okay, this school would be a great fit for them, but there are so many other schools and I think it's important for us to broaden that experience for them. Um, tell me, can you explain, can you explain to our audience, Where the U. S. World Report gets this information and how they come up with the conclusion of naming these as top 20 or top 50.

Michelle: 8:58

They keep changing their formula. So, but like, so, I mean, they're looking at things like, um, social mobility. They're looking at, how students are are doing in terms of four year graduation, five year, six year graduation rate. There's a number of things that go into the U. S. News and World Report formula. They used to do acceptance rate, but they've taken that piece out. I think if you look at the details of what U. S. News is caring about and you just use some critical thinking skills and think to yourself. First of all, does this have anything to do with a quality education? And but even more important, does it have anything to do with my child and my student, whether this school is the right fit for my kid. So one of the things that they'll do is they'll ask other colleges, to rate one another. And that is of no interest to me when I'm picking out a school for a student, what, you know, Yale thinks about Harvard and also how would they know the details all of that. So they're looking at, um, perception of the college and that being super important. And I mean, out in the world, Could that be important that you're at a party or you're on the plane next to somebody and you're talking and you get to drop it that you went to Yale, you went to Georgetown, you went to UCLA. Possibly that could make a difference if that person you're speaking to is, uh, put stock in the same thing that you are, which is this prestige. But in general, I don't think that's what matters when choosing, whether or not. A student is going to get a great education at a college and whether or not they're going to get a great job. So, I just don't pay much attention to U. S. News and World Report, although I do have some clients that it's really important to them. And so, a lot of the schools that are in the top 20 or top 50 are great fits for my students. And so we talk about, well, of these schools, which ones are, right for you. So for example, some people will say, well, let's just throw an app into all eight Ivy League colleges. And I'm like, that doesn't make any sense because the student who would love Brown, but hate Princeton and vice versa, very different cultures. So. I want to look at well, why are we putting this school on the list? What do we know about you? What do we know about the school? And let's make that match and pick out the schools, whether they're in the top 20 or not, that are really good fit for the student academically, socially, personally and financially. Absolutely.

Sonia: 11:34

And even the same school might stand out for a specific program. So saying that a university works well for all degree programs is honestly, very unfair. And it's just not true. I mean, not one single school in the United States is amazing at all college, at all degree programs.

Michelle: 11:56

I 100 percent agree with you. And different degree programs. They're different at different colleges. So you have to be aware of what it is you want to study and look at it a little deeper. So for example, I have a student, she's at the beginning of her college search and she wants to study, she says marine science. But when you dig into the details when you're studying marine sciences, there's marine biology, there's oceanography, there's marine science. They're not the same. And so if you're concerned about cellular molecular is that's different from I'm worried about the whales in the ocean. And so students really need to dive into. Well, how is this college presenting the topic compared to another college? And what would I be taking if I studied? At the school, one of my area of interest compared to that school, and that's where fit comes into play. You don't, even if a school has a great reputation, if they're offering a program that doesn't quite match up with what you're looking for, or your skill level and your abilities, then you're going to want to pick something else. It takes a lot of research, and that is a barrier for students. They don't, they either don't want to do it, or they literally don't know how.

Sonia: 13:11

We don't know what to look

Michelle: 13:12

for. And if they, if they had a clue of what to look for, they, they kind of stuck, well, how do I get that information? and that's what we do at the college spy is we guide the students in doing that research by doing it with them until they're able to then say, Oh, this is what I need to look up. Michelle showed me how to do this. Now I can do it on my own for the next set of colleges. Hopefully they can do it on their own. Some of them are less motivated than others, in which case we just, it's concierge program, we just take them under our wing and do it together. Um, but hopefully they're learning skills they can take with them into the future.

Sonia: 13:48

Yeah, and I'm going to have to add a little plug in here, um, to mention this for our parents. Let your child do the research. I love my parents were so invested in their children. I love it. I love it. I love it. But if you really want to prepare them for college, Just take a step back and let them do a little bit of the research themselves. Because again, that they're the ones who are going to be going to college. And when they get to college, they're the ones who are going to have to do the work. So I always have to add that in because I know our, our parents are so passionate, especially when they're listening, you know, to podcasts like this. They're very invested. Um, it's just letting the child kind of lead the way a little bit.

Michelle: 14:30

I agree with you on that. Letting them take ownership of their own process is setting them up for success in college. I have some students who are perfectly capable and willing to do this type of research. But because the parent is so involved in bombarding them with emails and constantly talking about the college, the student is just baffled. They back away from it. They don't want to engage if the parent took a step back, the student would just easily take a step forward. There are some students that would struggle with this, but there are many who absolutely can do it, but don't because it's easier to let mom and dad do it because they will. but it is difficult for parents to take a step back. They are very invested. I see it all the time.

Sonia: 15:14

Oh, yeah. And I'm lifting my hand up too, because I get it. Sometimes I have to like catch myself and my kids are not that age yet for college readiness specifically, but just with interaction with the teachers and with their school, I have to kind of back up and be like, all right, you tell the teacher, you know, you're the one who needs to be advocating for yourself. Um, beautiful, beautiful. Okay. In reference to, um, in reference to the college list, what do you recommend students do to start making their list?

Michelle: 15:47

So I have a list of about 60 college fit factors that we go through, and we talk about these various aspects of college. And as we do it, students are, two things are happening. One, they're learning about colleges because they don't know how, like, for example, they don't understand how the academic calendar is going to affect them. So if a college is on trimester compared to semester, it's a different experience. Trimester goes faster. It's a 10 week. Terms. There's three of them. So before you know it, you're turning around taking a midterm. You're turning around taking a final where, um, but you're taking less courses at a time where semester is 15 weeks long, more courses at a time, but it's spread out. So that could be something that's important. So I'm explaining to students all the different ways colleges are different from each other. And we're identifying their criteria. So they're saying, well, that's a deal breaker for me. I have to have that. If it's not semester, I'm not going. Or they're saying, well, that sounds good, but it's not a deal breaker. I'm willing to be flexible on that point. And other times they're saying, no, I don't want that at all. And so we need to look for what do they really want and what are they flexible about in order to understand what the student is looking for and then match it up with the colleges as opposed to do it the other way around where you start with the colleges and then you back into is this a do we want that you have to know what you're looking for a little bit in order to investigate colleges in a meaningful way. So there's a lot of different things on my list of Things to talk about some of them. The students are just like, that sounds good. Good food, nice storms, things like that. But there are other things that are extremely important to them. And I thought I'd mentioned a couple. That's okay. Yes, please. Absolutely. So one is major, right? So if you know what you're interested in studying or the area that you're interested in studying, you're going to want to look at what is the curriculum of this major? What are the opportunities within this major at the different colleges? And if you don't know what your major is, you're unsure, you want to know how the colleges support undecided students. There are some schools that have special programs for students to explore one of them being Jacksonville University in Philadelphia. They have an exploratory program. Another one is Ithaca College. So lots of schools are supporting. students who are undecided and so that might be really helpful to you and you might prioritize your search around schools that are good at that. So major is important. The second one is making sure that your learning style is going to match. Up with the teaching style at the college. So if you're a hands on learner, you're going to want to go to a school that has a lot of hands on learning. If you like to learn with discussion, you're going to want to look for that. If lecture is what's best for you sitting, listening, taking notes, and then asking your questions, maybe in a small group. Section of the lecture, then that's what you're going to look for. Um, so students don't realize that they have a choice when they're picking out their colleges. They think, Oh, I can just make do with whatever they offer. No, you actually get to pick this time. It's not high school where you just go to the one that your family picked or that's in your district where it's where you live. You get to choose. And so be thoughtful about what's right for you as a learner. And then the final one I wanted to mention, Sonia, is that. The culture of the school being right for the student. So, and that can mean different things to different people. So culture could be, this is a real professional environment. A lot of the students who come to this school are looking, are at the school looking towards the future. What job are they going to get next? What's the next step? As opposed to a school where we're all here to learn. We want to learn things that we're super interested in regardless of how that eventually turns out. leads to the next step. And we're just going to learn, this is a liberal arts philosophy, we're going to learn skills, analytic skills, critical thinking skills, writing skills, presentation skills. And so whatever job you go to, we can apply those skills. Um, so, and then culture can also mean things like whether the school leans to the left or the right politically, whether, you know, The environment is important to the students at the school, so I was at Wesleyan recently. I visit a lot of colleges. They were composting in the library. Sometimes you'll see composting in the dining hall, but in the library, everywhere you went, you could compost. That's not a place where you carry a single use water bottle. And if that's not a good fit for you and you're going to feel this pressure to conform, that might not be the right school for you. Or it might absolutely be the right school for you because that's what you care about. There's lots of things you can think about when it comes to culture, so.

Sonia: 20:41

Yeah. Thank you for sharing those. And you know, it also made me think about, um, really understanding, again, the learning environment and where you, where you can be more successful. Um, I think all of these are things that students should be considering and thinking about because you and I know that, um, about 30 to 30, I've seen between 30 to 32% of students, undergraduate students. Never complete their degree. So we have to help solve this problem. And it starts with knowing yourself, knowing what's the best learning environment for yourself, identifying what career plan you're interested in, and then selecting the right college that works well for you as an individual. Because what good does it do going to a top name university? Again, I support all universities, but I'm just saying, To a university that's very well known and maybe doesn't align well with you does not provide the resources you're looking for. And then you end up not finishing your degree program. That is a lot of money to waste. And so being proactive with some of the things that you're sharing with our audience. I think it's very important and saving thousands and thousands of dollars.

Michelle: 21:53

Sure. And I also want to add for your audience that this takes a lot of time to do to go through this self reflection, helping your student who's in high school to the reflection that this is difficult for them to think about. They're not used to thinking about themselves in this way. Many students are doing what's right in front of them. School. They're not ready to think about college. So helping to guide them through that process. It takes time doing the research takes time. The visits take time circling back and saying, I thought I wanted this or my student thought they wanted this. But actually, now that we investigated it, they want something else or they've matured and change. And now they're doing the research all over again. So I just wanted to say that sometimes it's helpful to, when you expect something to take time. That you're going to put the time into it, as opposed to, oh, the summer before senior year, we'll figure, we'll go on a couple of college tours and figure out where to apply. That leads to stress to do it that way, as opposed to get started sophomore year, beginning of junior year. It's better to put two or more years into this research.

Sonia: 23:00

I love that. You answered my question because I was going to be, my next question is, when should students start looking and considering, um, College selection and college process. From your perspective and with your experience, what are your thoughts on, um, virtual visits? What have you seen from that? Are they beneficial? Do they really get the experience? Could they answer some of these questions that you're having them ask themselves about if it's a good fit?

Michelle: 23:27

Sometimes it depends on the, I think it depends on two things. One is whether There are not the college has put out a good virtual experience for prospective students because some of them are just awful and others are like, wow, I don't need to ever go to that campus. I really understand the essence of the school based on this virtual experience. They should still go to the campus and visit and see it, but. The schools sometimes do a really good job. The other thing it can depend on is the stage that your student is in of the college search. So, sometimes I start working with students as early as grade 9. Uh, 10 is a good time to start, but sometimes we start a little earlier if the student is ready. And, um, the virtual visits can be nebulous to those students. where once the student has some experience knowing about colleges, having visited a few in person and done other virtual tours, they can get more out of a virtual tour or a virtual information session than that student who's brand new to this and can't even imagine what the People are talking about because they haven't actually been to any campuses. So I'm glad they're there. I think It's good for access. Not everybody can travel all over the place to go to all different colleges, but it takes time. It takes money effort. So it's I'm glad they're there. But sometimes I have seen some virtual tours where I think, Oh, gosh, this is just going to turn students off to doing virtual tours.

Sonia: 24:57

Yeah, no, I agree. And, uh, so you're, you highly advise students actually going in person and doing the in person campus visits.

Michelle: 25:07

Absolutely. I think there's nothing better than standing on campus and looking around and saying, is this the right fit for me? What else do I need to find out about the school that I wasn't already told on the tour or in the information session in order to determine if the school is a fit for me? And then. Uh, ranking the schools in, in your, you know, this one is a better fit for me than that one is, is nothing better than, than going to campus. And one of the other benefits of going, of taking your child to, on campus tours is they become more engaged in the process. So when you take a student, there's so many unexpected benefits. So yeah, you're finding out if that particular college is a good fit and if your child wants to apply there. But I've seen kids who start to tour, do more homework, engage with their teachers more, participate in activities, because they see the future and what could be for them. And then all of a sudden they're like, wait a minute. They told me at that college that I need to do X, Y, and Z. My parent didn't tell me, but the college did. And now they start to do X, Y, and Z. Students who tour also do a lot better with their essays and applications because it's more meaningful to them. They're more engaged with it. So there's so many benefits to taking college tours, but it does take time and it can take money if you're traveling.

Sonia: 26:28

Yeah. You know, I love that you shared that because that's something that unintentionally happens. Um, coach, the parents will say, and that's how I get usually, honestly, the referrals is because they tell another parent, like, I don't know what happened, but after they met with Sonia, their personality has changed. Our relationship has gotten better. And it's again, because I bring that little spark back in them, that motivation, it's. Everything becomes more meaningful. It's not just like, mom's telling me I got to go to college or I'll have to do this. I have to do that. We find like, we find that they get more interested and more invested in the process. So yeah, I totally understand and completely relate with that.

Michelle: 27:13

It's the same sort of thing. I think that in adolescence, Is really the time where students are trying on different identities. They're separating from their parents. So the conflict that the families are might be having, it's very normal for just in terms of adolescent development. And so if you can, as a parent, bring in other people, people like the college spies team, or you, or teachers, school counselors, any other kind of. To have these conversations with your child, it can be really helpful to them because they're not busy having this. I need to separate from you feelings. They're just listening to the content and saying, Oh, there's more I can know about and do and aspire to be. So I think sometimes as the kids get older, good parenting looks like taking a step back and presenting other people for your student to engage with. And that's exactly what they're going to have to do when they get to college and the beginnings of their career, finding mentors and advisors. So practicing that as a high school student is just setting them up for success after high school.

Sonia: 28:20

Oh, my gosh. Yes. Yes. Yes to that. We speak the same language, Sonia. Yes, we do. We do. That's how we connected so quickly on that first conversation. Um, okay. Tell me about hidden gems. How can student students and parents find hidden gem schools?

Michelle: 28:38

Okay, so the first way is you have to want to find hidden gem schools. You need to take on the mindset, I'm going to be the parent at this softball game that everybody's going to be talking about top 20, but I'm going to say, but what about our sinus? What about Muhlenberg? What about Austin College in Sherman, Texas? Like, You know, you're going to be that parent, and everybody's going to be wowed that you have the confidence to bring up the non top 20 top 50. That's the first way. Another way is to follow the college spy. So I put out a newsletter every week, and it has lots of good information. It also tells you how you can engage with us, of course, but it's good content. And we often are putting out a college spotlight and spotlighting hidden gems schools because I have Visited over 300 schools. The Hidden Gems are more interesting to me than, um, the name brand, be, not because I don't like the name brand colleges, I often really do, but nobody needs my help to figure out Penn State, but you might need my help to figure out Arcadia. And so it's more fun to talk about Just like I'm telling the parents who want to find that fun, I find it fun. So if you follow The College Spy, just our website, thecollegespy. com, you sign up for the newsletter, you're going to get a lot of hidden gems. Another way is to, um, you can buy the book, uh, Colleges That Change Lives, or go to the website, I think it's CTC. I don't know if you can find it on yale dot com or dot org, but it's colleges that changed lives. They've written up and spotlighted about 40 schools that, will do what they think is change lives. These schools have amazing opportunities for students. But oftentimes people haven't heard of them until you're a follower of CTCL. And I think what will happen, even though that's only 40 colleges, is that you'll be like, Oh, this is what it means to change lives. This is something I really do want my student to engage in. And that might motivate you to say either those colleges are a good fit or I'm looking for other schools like this. I didn't realize the opportunities that were out ahead in gem college. And then I have one final tip. Use the map. So let's say your child is thinking about going to school in, um, I don't know, Pennsylvania. And so you're like, okay, I'm going to bring them to, um, Villanova in Philadelphia. We're going to go to Villanova, right? To check it out. And lots and lots of people have heard of Villanova. Take a look at on the map, what else is around Villanova? And if there isn't, if there are schools there that you haven't heard of, I think what happens to people is they say, I haven't heard of that school, so it must not be a good school. That is not true, because what you're You will find around Villanova is Haverford, which is harder to get into than Villanova and brings on a higher quality or caliber students, students with higher grades. You'll find Bryn Mawr, which is a women's college that's connected with Haverford and lots of great opportunities there. Swarthmore, which is a very selective university, but you'll also find schools like I mentioned before, or Sinus and Muhlenberg that are have higher acceptance rates than the ones I talked about. Just mentioned to you, but still amazing opportunities and purposely tack on one of those schools with as a visit with your Villanova visit. So whenever you're going to visit a college, pick ahead at Hidden Gem nearby to visit, and you'll start to understand for yourself. Hidden Gems are a great fit for my kid, or we really do want to look at the top 50 schools listed in U. S. News and World Report. That's most important to us, which it might be, and there's nothing wrong with that. But you don't want to accidentally limit your kid by not investigating more options.

Sonia: 32:32

Absolutely. And you know, I'm, I'm very highly invested in helping students with building connections and really thinking career planning early on. And I took one of my students that I was coaching into a visit and, uh, to a contracted company that contracts directly with NASA. The, there were two people there. One of them who actually did the tour for us and that person, he was a, an engineer, he works side by side with an MIT graduate. The other individual was a university of Houston graduate and they're working side by side. And so this is when, you know, it, it would just. Full circle for me in the career world. What does this look like where you have, again, an MIT graduate and university of Houston graduate working side by side, same job title, same position, and it just blew me away. And I love that. I love that there's opportunities. If you're thinking about opportunities for your child career wise, you don't always have to look at the big name brands. You could look at. The colleges that are very close to you. and like Michelle said, following her, getting all her contact information, you might find other hidden gems. And guess what? Your child will probably be working side by side with another graduate from a top tier university or name brand university.

Michelle: 33:52

And likely to be paying less for that college education because these hidden gems, circling this back to ROI, these, these hidden gem schools, they often give a lot of merit aid. So even, and they'll give need based aid if you have financial need, but even if you don't have a lot of financial need or any financial need. The price will come down for your child because two reasons. One, they're trying to entice your kid to come to the school, right? there are two reasons why the price might come down at a Hen and Jem college. First is that some of them are a little bit less selective than maybe the And the top tier schools you're looking at. So whenever you're looking at a school, that's a little less selective. I'm not saying a lot less selective because families will get anxious about that, but a little bit less. That means your child is at the top of the applicant pool and the college is going to really want that student and they're going to offer a lot of merit aid, possibly even a free ride to get to college. And then the second reason why a student at a hidden gem school. School might get a lot of merit aid is simply because the college has a policy of giving merit aid to many, many students. Sometimes 100 percent of students who are who apply are offered a merit aid package because what they do is they jack up these prices and they bring it down with a discount on tuition. No different than going to Kohl's with your 30 percent coupon, right? You don't go to Kohl's without your coupon. Same with the hidden gem schools. You're going to get that coupon. That's the philosophy of the college. That's their policy is a better way to say it. So, um, Those two things, these great opportunities, like you just mentioned, and the lower cost could be a great fit to choose a hidden gem college for your child.

Sonia: 35:44

Absolutely. And you know, this just gosh, this conversation gives me so much joy because I have a soft heart for our medium income families, a very soft heart, because I feel there's a lot of resources for low income, which much needed. And then of course, the higher income wall, they, they can afford it. So it's the medium income Families that just I want to help and support and this is the perfect way finding these hidden gems that's going to offer a lot more merit aid, a lot more opportunities. You're going to get a great education and they are probably going to be just as invested or more as invested to helping your child succeed after college as well. And, and then you're going to hear everybody else, you know, still paying back their education and still trying to find a job. So, This is a win win for you. Use the resources. Use the connections like Michelle. sign up to her newsletter because this is how we're going to make education more affordable. And this is how we're going to make more opportunities for our students in the future.

Michelle: 36:48

100 percent agree. We are definitely speaking the same language.

Sonia: 36:52

I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much, Michelle. Is there anything that I have not asked you that you think I should have asked you before we wrap up our conversation?

Michelle: 37:01

I think you've asked me lots of great things. It's perfect. Absolutely perfect. There's nothing more I really want to add.

Sonia: 37:08

I love it. Well, can you, um, wrap up by letting our audience know where they can find and connect to you, connect with you. I know you've shared, you know, your website as well, but let us know where they can find you.

Michelle: 37:20

Yep. I'm everywhere. So the college spy. com is the website. My email is my first name, which is Michelle with two L's at the college spy. com and Instagram, Twitter, or X now, uh, LinkedIn, Facebook. It's at the college spy. I love it.

Sonia: 37:39

Thank you so much, Michelle, for being here and just sharing so much great information with our listeners. Thanks for having me.